Curse

Bug John · Aug 02, 2009, 10:11 AM // 10:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jinkies

Unlike the lottery you just cant win. Even if you get lucky and service 40 keys and get an EL Tonic, what have you won, 20e? At least in the real lottery you can pay 5 bucks and win 34million, or something like that ^.

yes, your problem is not really the zaishen service, it's the zaishen chest and the zaishen service "exchange rate"

"you get twice the drops and I get twice the points" seems unfair when drops are that bad, but I'm sure people don't gamble for money

both persons involved have different profiles : one wants the points at a reduced cost, the other likes to gamble even if drops mostly suck, he's not using the zaishen service to make his money back

Raven Wing · Aug 02, 2009, 10:51 AM // 10:51

To me....without making it wordy....its clearly not a scam when both parties agree on the transaction.
But it looks like a poor trade for the player providing a key and only get 50% of its average value back. Personally I wouldnt want to do that, at that rate, but people are free to do as they like. I would want to get at last 3x drops for each key I give, but thats just me^^

dr love · Aug 02, 2009, 01:13 PM // 13:13

its not a scam, its just a ripoff. but some people love popping the chest, so 2 drops is better than 1 for them.

AngelWJedi · Aug 02, 2009, 03:40 PM // 15:40

In the end its between the person doing the service and the one buying it. i myself will never use. 1) dont trust easly 2) no zkeys.

and i only think its a scam if the person doesnt give the other person their items. now those champ point sellers are the real scammers.

Horace Slughorn · Aug 02, 2009, 03:57 PM // 15:57

I think at the very least, this thread might help show people that it is more sensible to sell their keys and purchase the items they are hoping for, if they do not care for the title.

Everyone has been saying, "but people love to gamble" as if this were a response to the OPs argument. It is not. "People love to gamble" is descriptive, it describes the current state of things. "People should sell their keys" is prescriptive, it suggests a good course of action. Arguing about how things are and how they ought to be, doesn't really make sense as you guys have set it up here.

Anyways, gl to all those aiming to max the zaishen title, I hope you don't take too much advantage of the folly of poorer players.

Martin Alvito · Aug 02, 2009, 04:50 PM // 16:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grj

Just as the people roll into the nerf x threads defending it because they taking advantage of it themselfs

I'm sure there's some of that here, but there's a lot more to it.

The OP is trying to project his own attitude towards risk onto the community, and people don't like that.
The OP has taken a very ironic anti-free market stance, and people don't like that.
The OP is playing nanny trying to tell people what is good for them, and people don't like that either.

I'm willing to bet that most of the people posting in this thread defending Zaishen services are rank 3 Zaishen or less, and have no interest in maxing the title.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Horace Slughorn

Everyone has been saying, "but people love to gamble" as if this were a response to the OPs argument. It is not. "People love to gamble" is descriptive, it describes the current state of things. "People should sell their keys" is prescriptive, it suggests a good course of action. Arguing about how things are and how they ought to be, doesn't really make sense as you guys have set it up here.

I don't use zkeys. I burned my 200 so I could add the title to HoM and got jack-all for doing it. Not even a decent weapon mod. The OP is correct that opening the Zaishen chest is still a bad long run gamble even if you use two keys and don't take the title track points. I wouldn't do it.

But some people like risk and like to gamble. I'm not going to sit here and say that the market rate is unfair when the exchange is CLEARLY Pareto-improving for a player that wants chest drops but not title track points, and a player that prefers the opposite. Both players get more of what they want. Who am I to say that the price is unfair?

Sure, I'd never take one side of that trade...but that doesn't mean that the trade is wrong, which is what you and the OP would like to claim. If it were a certainty that the player were getting the worse end of the deal (eg: here, take my q9 insc Fellblade for your q9 insc Crystalline), you'd have a leg to stand on. But there's uncertainty involved.

Shasgaliel · Aug 02, 2009, 06:26 PM // 18:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Ketsu

You don't get it. None of what you are saying matters.

The people paying for the keys and performing the service DONT WANT the drops, they want the rank.

The people getting payed and providing the keys DONT WANT the rank, they want the drops.

Neither party can be ripping either off, because neither party wants what the other is getting.

Same as in the black dye example.... One wants to sell one wants to buy and both parties get profit... But it looks wrong does it? The issue is that the rank increase can have a monetary value. In my opinion OP proposal for 3:1 is more reasonable than 1:1. Here you just assumed that
1 increase in rank=1 drop.

It is subjective. For you and many others it is ok. For me and some people it is not. Therefore I will not use service with such exchange rate. One of the first z-services was offering even 4:1. It my opinion it was much more fair. This one I was inclined to use. In 4:1 both parties gain as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Ketsu

It doesn't matter if the drops are worth 1k or 100k or if the service pay is 1k or 100g. Both players are getting what they want at a reduced rate.

For me it does matter for many others as well. Why do you assume everyone does as you do? If someone likes to spent 4k on zkey to get drop probably worth 600g it is their own choice indeed. In most of the z-services he will get two drops instead of one. So he gets twice as much. Agreed. But he is still loosing money... The issue is how much are zrank points actually worth. As I wrote above 3:1 is in my opinion more fair. You are arguing that loosing 2k is better than loosing 3k. Agreed. but what I am saying is that there is no need to loose at all. If someone does not care. Great for him and current z-serices!
I do care. So do not speak for me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Ketsu

What you really mean to argue is that Zchest drops do not meet what the community have agreed the price for Zkeys is. While that may be true, it has no effect on Z services since neither player is being deprived of something they are trying to get, and by extension cannot possibly be getting ripped off. The fact that Z chest drops generally do not pay for themselves would be true regardless of whether or not Z service is used.

Zkeys price depends NOT on the drops but on their supply. When XTH went down their price went up again. Drops did not change. But in general I agree with you here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Ketsu

What I have just explained is a very basic concept of trading based on desired item/demand. This has been in effect for thousands of years. If you still don't get it after reading this, please redirect yourself to the nearest wall and commence the traditional self punishment of cranial smacking.

Personal attacks do not make your arguments more valid.

Read again my example with black dye. This is exactly the same mechanism working. However people do think it is a scam why? People buying blacks for 100g argue that they just offer what others are willing to accept and offer more than a available merchant... They use exactly the same arguments you use and which are in this thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

But some people like risk and like to gamble. I'm not going to sit here and say that the market rate is unfair when the exchange is CLEARLY Pareto-improving for a player that wants chest drops but not title track points, and a player that prefers the opposite. Both players get more of what they want. Who am I to say that the price is unfair?

It is not clearly pareto improving since service provider may steal the drops. Actually by using the service you need to take into consideration loosing your keys and not getting anything at all....You assumed that service provider is honest. I would like to see what would happen if r9 obby edge was dropped... Some of z-services in GTOB are farming z-keys for sale from unexpecting people. It pays off for more than 50 keys (real money price of 50 zkeys=gw account last time I checked). Smart seller will be using one by one but many does not do it. Also not everyone uses services from GURU.

Esprit · Aug 02, 2009, 09:25 PM // 21:25

Some people want Creme Brulee's from the chest, some towns are so big you need them.

In the end it's a gold sink for people who have a compulsion to spend money.

Martin Alvito · Aug 02, 2009, 09:34 PM // 21:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shasgaliel

It is not clearly pareto improving since service provider may steal the drops.

Go out there as a party with the service provider. Screenie the agreement. Screenie if he steals anything. Report for scamming with evidence (ie: player scoops drops) if needed.

Since the contract is enforceable, this isn't as large of an issue as you might think. Also, most of the Zaishen service providers value their reputations, since honestly providing the drops leads to recommendations and more business.

Not saying that it can't happen, but the incentives are for the service provider to be honest, and you can protect yourself further by being intelligent about verifying the honesty of the provider.

JoeKnowMo · Aug 02, 2009, 10:12 PM // 22:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jinkies

Maybe I'm just QQing about paying the normal amount for my title like the majority of the honorable folks in GW.

Change "maybe" to "certainly", "normal" to "double", and "honorable" to "unwise" if you want to be honest.

And change thread title to: "Why I'm upset about paying double for a title and emote."

Then we might have a reasonable discussion.

fenix · Aug 02, 2009, 10:38 PM // 22:38

There are going to be players wasting keys on the chest and not caring about the title even if this service DOESN'T exist.

With it, those players who open for the sake of opening, get a benefit (2 drops) and the person opening maxes their shitty pointless $4000 USD title.

Zaw · Aug 03, 2009, 03:48 AM // 03:48

I just sold my zkeys for 4k ea. Am i going to get reported for costing the guy who used the key 3.4k?

Jinkies · Aug 03, 2009, 05:18 AM // 05:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zaw

I just sold my zkeys for 4k ea. Am i going to get reported for costing the guy who used the key 3.4k?

The fact you sold your key, and did not "Service" it is an indicator to me, that my message has gotten across. Regardless of whether or not you realize it in your brain.

Zaw · Aug 03, 2009, 06:06 AM // 06:06

Oh but if i wanted drops i would use the service.

TBH, anyone with half a brain would realize that
A) Using zchest is a waste of money, unless you want big spears tht fly from the sky. Unless your some insane lucky guy who wins the lottery 6 times and their spouse 2 times....
B) Services are not a scam. Yes, you loose money, but people are allowed to waste their money how they want. Selling ectos to a guy going to get fow armor isn't scamming because he's going to loose all his money to the armourer.

I was going to blame your post to the fact that you are angry that you spent 2X as much on your title, but then i realized you probably don't care that much about money xD.

FengShuiDove · Aug 03, 2009, 06:12 AM // 06:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jinkies

The fact you sold your key, and did not "Service" it is an indicator to me, that my message has gotten across. Regardless of whether or not you realize it in your brain.

Or that he wanted money instead of the title or the drop. You argue like an arrogant asshole, which is hilarious because everyone else knows you're wrong.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...=3856187&pp=25

For anyone who may care, this is just a +1 thread for the OP. The discussion is crap, seriously, because everyone except OP realizes what a mutually beneficial service is. He/she/it/shit's just goading everyone on so OP can buff OP's PC.

ExDragon269 · Aug 03, 2009, 06:42 AM // 06:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jinkies

The fact you sold your key, and did not "Service" it is an indicator to me, that my message has gotten across. Regardless of whether or not you realize it in your brain.

When are you gonna get it through your head that everyone else is right and your wrong? Selling keys/ectos/etc is essentially a service because you are taking the time to farm such items, and the person buying would not have to. I agree its a ripoff but not a scam. Some people like to gamble, give it up dude your making yourself look like a jackass.

Jinkies · Aug 03, 2009, 06:59 AM // 06:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by ExDragon269

When are you gonna get it through your head that everyone else is right and your wrong? Selling keys/ectos/etc is essentially a service because you are taking the time to farm such items, and the person buying would not have to. I agree its a ripoff but not a scam. Some people like to gamble, give it up dude your making yourself look like a jackass.

Your post is nothing but a personal attack and a repitition of what has aleady been said. If you are incabable or reading, or just didn't even bother reading my 1st post then you are wasting your time giving this topic free bumps.

Your poor excuse at an answer makes it obvious you didn't even read my original post. My issue is clearly how much of an advantage Zaishen Service people have over regular players and their clients. Not whether gambling is good or not. As i have said before i have pointed out more reasonable gambling odds, the fact that the odds arent even close to what's mathmatically fair makes it obvious this is a scam. Players are fooled into thinking that maybe.. if they are super lucky they will win. But even most of the luckiest people will lose here because the odds are so bad. Sure people like to gamble, but this isnt a gamble this is a lose, lose situation. Anyone that can do basic math sees that.

Thus the answer is simple, use the keys like they were meant to be used, or sell them. In the event that people want to gamble give them fairer odds.

And I'm really not wrong.. my math doesn't lie you cannot argue that at this exchnage rate, the service is mutully beneficial. Just because you disagree with the google defintion - that scam invloves deciet - does not mean that this is not an issue.

Zaw · Aug 03, 2009, 07:01 AM // 07:01

Your logic is flawed. Really.

Using a key=-4k to you.

Using a service (assuming you don't want the title) =-2k for you.

So you pay 2k per key instead of 4k. IF your set on gambling and using the chest, your saving lots and lots of money.

Jinkies · Aug 03, 2009, 07:09 AM // 07:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zaw

Oh but if i wanted drops i would use the service.

TBH, anyone with half a brain would realize that
A) Using zchest is a waste of money, unless you want big spears tht fly from the sky. Unless your some insane lucky guy who wins the lottery 6 times and their spouse 2 times....
B) Services are not a scam. Yes, you loose money, but people are allowed to waste their money how they want. Selling ectos to a guy going to get fow armor isn't scamming because he's going to loose all his money to the armourer.

I was going to blame your post to the fact that you are angry that you spent 2X as much on your title, but then i realized you probably don't care that much about money xD.

The amount I paid is quite trivial, 5500 ecto won't get you far in GW anymore. Anyone who knows me would know the amount I paid is not the issue. I have more than enough to do nearly whatever I want, whenever I want. Now if you are arguing that I am angry other people spent half as much on the title, then you might have an argument.

my primary concerns include how much of an advantage z service people have over everyone who uses the service or has bought z rank, and how much money clients are losing in this sub par return rate.

byteme! · Aug 03, 2009, 07:14 AM // 07:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jinkies

I am hanging on to this thread for dear life...

Give it up, in a battle of wits you came to this thread unarmed and unprepared. The more you try to convince anyone the dumber you look. This thread is hilarious.